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/b/ - Stochastic

"Alle Empfindungen stiegen bis zu einer niegekannten Höhe in ihm. Er durchlebte ein unendlich buntes Leben; starb und kam wieder, liebte bis zur höchsten Leidenschaft, und war dann wieder auf ewig von seiner Geliebten getrennt."
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     No.201

    I gave another try to read his Philosophy and Religion, absolutely logically clear. If you haven't read any philosophy and have some training in cs or logic, you can read Schelling first. His philosophy language is artistic and his philosophy is spatial structured, harsh speeches reveal his uneasy and stressful INTP personality, but it's completely as elegant as Telemann's "Du aber Daniel, gehe hin" song.

     No.202

    >>201
    Schelling - Hoelderlin - Beethoven
    Goethe - Novalis - Mozart

    The ideal of the former is realized in the latter.

     No.203

    >>201
    I think it is quite a stretch to consider him as Ti dom, and since he is quite a focused thinker I see no trace of Ne, which never exhibits thematic focus, at all..Peirce was certainly Ti dom. Schelling nah.

     No.206

    >>203
    I am not yet an expert in Jungian analysis, so maybe there was a misunderstanding. Basically it was after reading some "Von der Weltseele" that I got the feeling that he is an INTP. Combining observations of his private life - participatations in archaeological activities and Schlegel's magazine - a better way to explain it is that some of his qualities (compared with other philosophers), are something what INTPs yearn for very much.

     No.207

    >>206
    That's MBTI and has little to do with Jung's own theory which is rather crude and was just used as an early attempt to find the right categories of personality analysis, but anyway.
    I see no point in connecting what you've said with INTP and all kinds of personality types can do whatever they want, they just do these things in different manners, and this "manner" is something hard to really give any definite description.
    It is absolutely incomprehensible that someone can type him as INTP. It never even occured to me. A person's first function is NOT what characterizes the external appearnace of a person. Often the most obvious trait that someone exhibits, especially when this person is an introvert, or when they write, is their third function.
    For example many so-called mystics of the perennial school are actually people possessing Ni as their third. There are many ISFPs in the perennial school, and many so-called artists with mystical leaning - especially those attracted by theosophy - are plainly Ni-tert. These people often think they are very Ni-driven but they very often cannot distinguish between what is truly archetypal and what is a mimic, though they refuse to admit the fact. A plethora of people obsessed with theosophy and "mystical" teachings, who cannot make the distinction between Schelling and arbitrary third-rate theosophy, are Ni-tert.
    Many outwardly "logical" person do not operate "logically" in their own person. Schelling doesn't, Wittgenstein doesn't. Their intuition precedes their thought, but the way they express and try to come to term with their intuition is "logical". These two should both be Ti-tert. Schelling was logical but his writings are not clear and he doesn't want to be clear since it is in the dynamism and the complex net of thoughts that his vision emerges. His work is not an exhibition of clear thought but more of his insights, and what made him a logical philosophe is the way he honed his thoughts, and how his insights are organized into a powerful contrapuntal complex. There is also a tendency in people that regards Deleuze as Ti-dom which is absolutely nonsense.
    Ti-dom are very different, they often do not have a "philosophical temperament"; you rarely see a philosopher that is Ti-dom but who also has a magnificent temperament, if there is any. Maybe Thomas Aquinas was a Ti-dom since he unlike, say, Schelling, never really possesses a semi-conclusion before he deduces, and the way he writes, the overall restraint he exhibits in his writing and his thought is quite obviously Si-tert. But the best example of Si-tert is plainly Peirce. Also Ti-dom tend to write clearly and their arguments are crisp, fast. Best examples, Graham Priest, who I think is an ISTP and this is as obvious as possible, and Leibniz, whose arguments are often no more than a paragraph long. Ti do not tend to make anythings "deep", it makes things precise and "systematic" (not in the sense of stream-lining but in the sense of preserving consistency; put it simply whenever I use the term "in the sense of" and "not in the sense of" I'm arguably in Ti-mode).

     No.208

    >>207
    Nah, the last sentence was also quite a strech. Ti is neither consistency nor precision, but "internal consistency and inference". It is a theory-making function, but it doesn't provide the content of the theory that is produced. So someone who has Ti in their first three function tend to first give a hypothesis that can explain everything in a phenomenon that they observe, out of the need of consistency and sense making. Ti is sometimes quite delusional since they rarely really care to know about what actually is the case. Ti-dom/tert/secondary make hypotheses that make sense, and if these hypothese make sense they tend to believe in it and disregard factual information. This doesn't mean that Ti users tend to put things in a pre-existent framework. It is not a fixed framework that is important, but the consistency between a framework that is produced real-time and the given information. So precision is just a byproduct for the elimination of false frameworks that can be confused with the right one. If a framework makes sense then it can become more real than external information.
    Anyways, in Schellings writings his Ti is driven by something alien to itself. His passages are often quite tortured, not because Ti produces tortured sentences; his Ti is carving something consistent out of a mess.
    It doesn't require someone to be Ti-dom to exhibit strong Ti traits. And actually INTP, being Ti-dom, tend not to exhibit it. If you see someone who is quite argumentative in public (i.e. when he is not really comfortable) it is highly possible that he is NOT a Ti-dom. A Ti-dom tends to simply ignore others since he is so sure of himself, and that is also the reason why when a Ti-dom argue for his point he gives absolutely concise answer and doesn't explain much.

     No.212

    >>207
    >Ti do not tend to make anythings "deep", it makes things precise and "systematic"
    That's quite strange for me actually, since making things precise and systematic is something a "deep" thing for me, good examples are Schelling's "Ages of the world", for me which is not "insightful lectures" like that for you but has a very thought-provoking precision which looks like "deep" for me. And also Xenakis' book, Spinoza's philosophical modeling-like system description of his Ethics book. Or, Deleuze's Nitezsche book.
    So I guess what you referred to as "deep" is always linked to Ni which is a completely unfamiliar thing to my nature. I suspect that I have never touched the "depth" of Novalis (according to your ealry judgement of "deep" for him), because his philosophical fragments under the influence of natural sciences, chemistry etc. are finally manifested as a poetic pinnacle, so he is like an avant-garde compared to his contemporaries, e.g. Hoelderlin.
    >perennial mystics
    I currently find that Chardin's books are full of things that I can't "understand" (again by my nature). This also caused me to unconsciously divide him into that "perennial school", but apart from this, his archaeological experience makes me feel more convinced of his judgments. But I can't totally believe it at all at the moment since I can't see any reasoning from perennial mystics' works. I often feel like this: every sentence of each of their books is trying to convey one single thing, and they have not made a convincing explanation. They just don't want to do reasoning like philosophers.
    How to understand Chardin by the way? Do I need more "physics" trainings to understand Chardin? I don't know. Compared to him, Lubac is a totally poetic philosopher and I definitely like his honesty, I read his Atheist drama book.

     No.213

    >>212
    >Ti
    Strange. None of the philosophers that you mentioned seem very precise to me, including Spinoza. They are "logical" but it is not their focus. They are just not who those dumb art students etc think. When it comes to precision and systematicity what comes up in my mind are Whitehead, Dummett, etc., and maybe sometimes Kant (Kant is good at classification but he's not really precise and there are actually many flaws in his writings). In particular Dummett is extremely precise and there's a certain depth that is more Ti-oriented in his writings, but yeah it's a different form of depth.

    >Teilhard

    I'm not really sure. There are various ways of reading his works and various ways of understanding. It will help if you know, say, QM and the debates around measurements, and its relation with global semantic anti-realism, but that's too much and maybe a stretch from the first sight of it. Studying about evolutionary thought, its emergence, the philosophy/metaphysics that's behind it, and think about questions like "what is life" may also help… The related fields are very familiar to me so I have some difficulties comprehending what other people know or don't know about a certain subject, so it's hard for me to give a "list" or anything similar.
    But first of all he's NOT really a philosopher, and his writings are more indicative of something rather than descriptive of something. For me myself, I think I won't recommend Teilhard to the earlier me; the best way to read Teilhard is to be led to him by certain questions that you yourself have regarding contemporary theolgy and the related fields.
    But one thing is for sure. He's not for the "un-trained" and requires quite some understandings of history of thoughts (philosophy, science, etc) to get a hold on.